[Histonet] Re:peggy wenk comments on HT/HTL practical - To stick a Pin

[Marcum, Pamela A]

I understand the NAACLS rules and live in reality where it is not always followed due to expediency to have a registered HT.  It is not the best way to control how we train new Histologists.  

-----Original Message-----
From: histonet-bounces <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu [mailto:histonet-bounces <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu] On Behalf Of Shirley A. Powell
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 11:10 AM
To: Pam Marcum; Candice Smoots
Cc: Histonet
Subject: RE: [Histonet] Re:peggy wenk comments on HT/HTL practical - To stick a Pin

http://www.naacls.org/docs/Section3_HT.pdf

NAACLS spells it out.  Online Schools should be following the guidelines.  If not they need to rethink their programs if they are approved by NAACLS.

sp

-----Original Message-----
From: histonet-bounces <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu [mailto:histonet-bounces <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu] On Behalf Of Pam Marcum
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 12:02 PM
To: Candice Smoots
Cc: Histonet
Subject: Re: [Histonet] Re:peggy wenk comments on HT/HTL practical - To stick a Pin



I have followed this for a while and was wondering why no one is bringing up the lack of Histology Schools and the small number of graduates they can produce per year as an issue.  Online is fine if you have a lab to work in.  However; one of the people no longer at this facility simply did his book work and an HT then offered himself as just that. He never cut a section or did a stain yet he passed so it is possible.



Many of us are training OJTs again due to the lack of available people and the in our case the starting salary is low.  It is said it is because we are not required to complete a BS for an HT only the HTL .  It means we are doing as much as we can to train someone in only one lab with the small amount of time an understaffed Histology Laboratory has yet still have the best training for the field.  We are not recognized fully as Laboratory Professionals yet so it is not really getting any better than it was years ago.  Now we require a 2 year degree for education in science and not much help from the organizations that rule us beyond pay more money.  Many of us are not able to go to meetings ( especially NSH ) due to costs to us personally as the hospitals and Universities are not paying for travel and very little for educational help.



Pam Marcum













----- Original Message -----




From: "Candice Smoots " < candice _ camille @yahoo.com>
To: " Histonet " < histonet @lists. utsouthwestern . edu >
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 10:46:04 AM
Subject: Re: [ Histonet ] Re: peggy wenk comments on HT/ HTL practical - To stick        a Pin

If my memory severs me correctly.....  is not "required" that a canidate must also have lab experience inorder to take the exam wheather it be from a histotech program or on the job training. So anyone who becomes HT/ HTL certified should not only know basic theory but should also have atleast basic experience in micotomy , staining, fixation etc. I thought that this was the case for any of the routes that it takes to become certified.

What I have found is that a person can start out in a specialty lab and work thier way up  and get the work experience that is required to sit for the exam however because they only have experience in THAT lab, they are in a disadvantage because they do not have routine experience.

For example, I know a person who started out in  a research lab and was trained and worked thier way up in about 3 years. They studied and sat for the exam because they had the required work experience and passed. They are now certified. However, whenn they got employed at a hospital that mostly did routines, they did have to be trained a little to undertsand rouine histology. They had never done basic trichromes  and they were slow at sectioning because speed was not as important where they were from. But the basic theory and micotmy , he had.

I say all this to say...... Just because a person has the credientials does not mean that they have all the experience even though they are certified. So sometimes it may take a little training but i admit that it shouldnt take much as if they are a beginner... as they are certified. Thats just my opinion.

I remain yours truely ,

Candice Camille

From: Jennifer MacDonald < JMacDonald @ mtsac . edu >
To: Rene J Buesa < rjbuesa @yahoo.com>
Cc: " histonet @lists. utsouthwestern . edu " < histonet @lists. utsouthwestern . edu >; Matthew Lunetta < MLunetta @ luhcares .org>; JoyceWeems < JWeems @ sjha .org>; histonet -bounces <@t> lists. utsouthwestern . edu ; Shirley A. Powell <POWELL_SA <@t> mercer. edu >
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 10:21 AM
Subject: RE: [ Histonet ] Re: peggy wenk comments on HT/ HTL practical - To stick a Pin

Graduating students in histotech programs DO clinical rotations.  They have hands-on experience.  They are not just learning the theory from books.




Rene J Buesa < rjbuesa @yahoo.com>
Sent by: histonet -bounces <@t> lists. utsouthwestern . edu
08/31/2011 07:54 AM

To
"Shirley A. Powell" <POWELL_SA <@t> mercer. edu >, JoyceWeems < JWeems @ sjha .org>, Matthew Lunetta < MLunetta @ luhcares .org>, " histonet @lists. utsouthwestern . edu " < histonet @lists. utsouthwestern . edu >, JoeGalbraith <joseph-galbraith@ uiowa . edu > cc

Subject
RE: [ Histonet ] Re: peggy wenk comments on HT/ HTL practical - To stick    a
Pin






Regardless of all the reasoning and good intentions, or even "advantages"
eliminating the practical part of the ASCP (either HT or HTL ) and concentrating in the "theory" only, is like graduating a medical student without doing any hospital rotations.
I would not want to be treated by such an MD.
If cheating in the exam was "a given" it is because those who were supposed to do the training were not doing their job correctly.
I would not want to have a recently "certified" HT( ASCP ) in my lab that I would have to train the practical aspects of the trade. I would expect that such a certified HT would be able to work with quality since the beginning.
You can never correct "a wrong" by doing another even greater "wrong".
René J

--- On Wed, 8/31/11, Galbraith, Joe <joseph-galbraith@ uiowa . edu > wrote:


From: Galbraith, Joe <joseph-galbraith@ uiowa . edu >
Subject: RE: [ Histonet ] Re: peggy wenk comments on HT/ HTL practical - To stick a Pin
To: "Shirley A. Powell" <POWELL_SA <@t> mercer. edu >, " Weems , Joyce"
< JWeems @ sjha .org>, "Matthew Lunetta " < MLunetta @ luhcares .org>, " histonet @lists. utsouthwestern . edu " < histonet @lists. utsouthwestern . edu >
Date: Wednesday, August 31, 2011, 9:36 AM


Histoland :

I have to agree also.  Programs that are graduating students with none of the skills listed in Matt's message are not doing their students or the profession any favors.  Programs certified to produce graduates should be required to place these students in rotations that give them practical experience and manual skills.  As a University based hospital we collaborate with area programs to provide their students with a practical rotation.  Believe me they must get up to speed quickly under our tutelage and leave having learned the skills or they do not pass our rotation.  If programs are just training students to pass the ASCP written exam without any practical experience either on site at the program or in collaboration with real labs then that is indeed a sad state of affairs and one that we as professionals should address via NSH and ASCP .  The practical may not have been the answer for everyone but we should not allow students to graduate without basic practical skills.  Thanks.

Joe Galbraith
Univ of Iowa

-----Original Message-----
From: histonet -bounces <@t> lists. utsouthwestern . edu [ mailto : histonet -bounces <@t> lists. utsouthwestern . edu ] On Behalf Of Shirley A.
Powell
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 7:32 PM
To: Weems , Joyce; Matthew Lunetta ; histonet @lists. utsouthwestern . edu
Subject: RE: [ Histonet ] Re: peggy wenk comments on HT/ HTL practical - To stick a Pin

I second that Joyce.
sp

________________________________________
From: histonet -bounces <@t> lists. utsouthwestern . edu [ histonet -bounces <@t> lists. utsouthwestern . edu ] On Behalf Of Weems , Joyce [ JWeems @ sjha .org]
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 6:17 PM
To: Matthew Lunetta ; histonet @lists. utsouthwestern . edu
Subject: RE: [ Histonet ] Re: peggy wenk comments on HT/ HTL practical - To stick a Pin

I don't understand how a student of any program would have not a portion of their program dedicated to these skills. We partner with Darton College and their students to do a certain number of hours for their " Clinicals ".
They know how to do those things, are trained by the clinical coordinator for the program, and are graded on their work.

Are they prepared to go into a lab and work like they've done OJT for 1-2 years? Not at all, but they need to be hired with the understanding that they will need time and patience to develop their speed and their skill.

My 2 cents...


Joyce Weems
Pathology Manager
Saint Joseph's Hospital
5665 Peachtree Dunwoody Rd NE
Atlanta, GA 30342
678-843-7376 - Phone
678-843-7831 - Fax


-----Original Message-----
From: histonet -bounces <@t> lists. utsouthwestern . edu [ mailto : histonet -bounces <@t> lists. utsouthwestern . edu ] On Behalf Of Matthew Lunetta
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 13:59
To: histonet @lists. utsouthwestern . edu
Subject: [ Histonet ] Re: peggy wenk comments on HT/ HTL practical - To stick a Pin

Hey all,

I found Peggy's comments on why the practical was discontinued to be very interesting. Of late I have had some experience with a new HT that graduated from a program and passed the current HT exam.
So, as they say in Great Britain, to stick a pin in the ASCP reasons.

This new fresh and shiny HT has all the book knowledge we needed them to have. What they did not have was any technical skills.
1) never used a microscope or centrifuge.
2) no special staining experience
3) no embedding experience
4) no cutting experience

When they cut or embed they are no were near the speed, accuracy or quality that is needed in our industry. While they can answer any question you ask them they just do not have the technical skills one would expect from a new graduate.

I have learned several lessons from this experience.

1) I am so very glad I was one of the last HT's to have taken the practical
2) Any new HT's will be taking a practical if I am involved in the selection process.
3) I will question they quality of any new HT from this particular program

While I am sure that there are many new HT's that do have the skills needed, this one experience has caused me to be more cautious.

Respectfully,

Matt Lunetta
BS, HT ( ASCP )




Message: 2
Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 18:09:46 +0200
From: " Gudrun Lang"
Subject: AW: [ Histonet ] Re: peggy wenk comments on HT/ HTL practical
To: " 'Bob Richmond' "
Cc: histonet @lists. utsouthwestern . edu
Message-ID: <8B7976B131854ABC8DB236FAB5026851@ dielangs .at>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset ="iso-8859-1"

Dear Dr. Richmond
Here in Austria we have a job open for a pathologist with 5 years experience. ;) Please, think it over to come. Lovely mountains, lovely techs...

It sounds, like you are from that sort of pathologist techs dream of.
Gudrun


----- Ursprüngliche Nachricht -----
Von: histonet -bounces <@t> lists. utsouthwestern . edu [ mailto : histonet -bounces <@t> lists. utsouthwestern . edu ] Im Auftrag von Bob Richmond Gesendet : Dienstag , 30. August 2011 04:43
An: histonet @lists. utsouthwestern . edu Betreff : [ Histonet ] Re: peggy wenk comments on HT/ HTL practical

I really appreciate Peggy Wenk's analysis of the practical examination and why it had to be dropped. I never really understood the issue before.

I must confess I always enjoyed helping the prospective examinee obtain exactly the right tissue.

"No, this endometrium is poorly preserved. We'll arrange with surgery for a completely fresh specimen - I'll block it initially for the diagnosis, then we'll fix it overnight and then block it exactly to specifications. - Ick - this one's been curetted - we'll get another one".

"I'll block the margins of this colon resection specimen, then we'll pin a portion of tissue onto paraffin and fix it flat overnight."

"Next time I do an autopsy we'll get a lumbar spinal cord in the intact dura . I'll open the dura dorsally and ventrally with iridectomy scissors, then we'll hang it in neutral buffered formalin for two days. Then I'll tie the dura and dependent nerves with a cotton string. When you embed you'll remove the string, taking care that dura and nerves remain in position. After that it's all yours. If it doesn't work the first time, we've got three more levels in the jar."

OK, I'm a geek, I'm 72 years old, I got a right.

Bob Richmond
Samurai Pathologist
Knoxville TN

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