[Histonet] Histology Workflow Solutions

Mon Feb 28 12:08:42 CST 2011

Vendor's, whether we like it or not are going to monitor areas where we
are expressing ideas and concerns.  This cuts down on the need to do
studies and customer data mining.  I to think that vendors need to stay
neutral, but the email clearly has a disclaimer,, so I think enough said
on this one.

-----Original Message-----
From: Rathborne, Toni [mailto:trathborne <@t> somerset-healthcare.com] 
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2011 11:03 AM
To: Mahoney,Janice A; Jesus Ellin; Michael Mihalik; CHRISTIE GOWAN;
dana.spencer <@t> pcmh.com; histonet <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu
Subject: RE: [Histonet] Histology Workflow Solutions

I can say that I appreciated Michael's comments, but also think that he
should have left his contact information and the company he represents
off of the email. If anyone would have been interested in replying to
him privately, they still could have done so. 

-----Original Message-----
From: histonet-bounces <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu
[mailto:histonet-bounces <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu]On Behalf Of
Mahoney,Janice A
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2011 12:56 PM
To: 'Jesus Ellin'; Michael Mihalik; CHRISTIE GOWAN;
dana.spencer <@t> pcmh.com; histonet <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu
Subject: RE: [Histonet] Histology Workflow Solutions

Histonet Users.
Please help me understand something.  I may be opening a big can of
worms here but I'm confused.
Why is it that Michael Mihalik is allowed to expound on the subject of
workflow solutions when he is a competitor in that market?  I'm not
saying that some of his comments are not helpful but I thought this was
a users forum?  People usually freak out when a vendor tries to put
comment on a competitors products,
what is the difference here? I personally do not want to hear what he
has to say here because he obviously has another agenda regardless of
how it is disguised.
I openly admit that I am a Ventana Vantage user and will stand by that
system because I know it so well and know it's capabilities. The BIG
difference is, I am a user, not a Vendor.
Jan
Omaha

-----Original Message-----
From: histonet-bounces <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu
[mailto:histonet-bounces <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu] On Behalf Of Jesus
Ellin
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2011 11:40 AM
To: Michael Mihalik; CHRISTIE GOWAN; dana.spencer <@t> pcmh.com;
histonet <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu
Subject: RE: [Histonet] Histology Workflow Solutions

Well put Michael!!

-----Original Message-----
From: histonet-bounces <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu
[mailto:histonet-bounces <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu] On Behalf Of Michael
Mihalik
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2011 10:35 AM
To: 'CHRISTIE GOWAN'; dana.spencer <@t> pcmh.com;
histonet <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu
Subject: RE: [Histonet] Histology Workflow Solutions

As many as you know this is a topic that is near and dear to my heart so
I'd
like to expound on this subject if you'll permit me.  For those of you
who
already have solutions, or perhaps have more favored topics, please feel
to
move on to the next subject.

First off, while I have some knowledge of both products, I am a user of
neither.  In fact I am a competitor of both, to some degree.  Both
products
offer advantages and disadvantages.  You really need to think about how
they
fit in your lab.  When I say 'in your lab', I mean not only the
histology
area, but everyone, including the accessioning clerks, secretaries,
pathologists, and even cytotechnologists.

To me, one of the items that is more relevant to your situation is
whether
you want an integrated solution (IMPAC) or a standalone/interfaced
solution.
For instance,

1.  How will information get into Vantage?  Will it have to be manually
accessioned/entered or will there be an interface?  In the IMPAC
solution
this is a non issue.  Also, keep in mind that there may be an interface
cost
from BOTH vendors should you decide an interface is in order.

2.  How will information get OUT of Vantage or put another way, does the
pathologist or secretary need to see information gathered/stored by
Vantage?
This may be resolved by another interface, but it may also be resolved
by
putting Vantage on more and more PCs.

3.  Who is going to configure, manage and maintain Vantage?  This is
going
to be a whole other computer system in your lab.  Will your IT
department
support it, maintain it, administer it, etc.  Who will understand and
set up
the files, etc.?  You have the same issue with IMPAC, but I bet someone
is
already handling all these issues.

4.  Can you use barcodes generated from Ventana on IMPAC?  I don't know
the
answer to this question.  It's not that each system can't read the
barcode.
It's a matter of whether IMPAC calls their slide, slide X and Vantage
calls
it 'y'.  For instance, maybe IMPAC calls it case#.spnid.blockid.slideid
and
maybe Vantage calls it slideidNN.  That means whenever the pathologist
scans
the slide at his IMPAC workstation, IMPAC won't recognize it.  Perhaps
this
is not an issue, but I thought I would bring it up.

5.  Management Reports:  I know IMPAC supports Crystal Reports and at
least
theoretically you can build your own management reports.  I don't what
the
situation with Vantage is.  Are they canned reports or can you add more?
Does this matter to you?  I don't know enough about the details of
either
reporting module.  Perhaps, the Vantage report subsystem generates
everything you could possibly need and therefore why deal with Crystal
Reports to generate unneeded reports.  On the other hand, I note that in
a
response, Christie mentioned that Vantage tracked quality issues
'anywhere
in the process'.  I would wonder how Vantage could track quality issues
at
specimen receipt or at the pathologists PC if Vantage was not installed
at
those two areas.  Perhaps as long as it's tracked somewhere, who cares
what
system contains the data.

These are some serious issues to consider and as you might conclude, the
analysis leans towards an integrated solution.  However, that's not the
whole story.

There is really no magic to printing and scanning barcodes.  The real
science/magic lies in how those barcoded identifiers are used.  You want
them to make misidentification errors go away and you want them to
constantly provide who/what/where information for any and all material.
...but again, HOW do the two sets of software do that?

You might want to consider the following questions:

1.  Do you HAVE to use PCs for each grossing, embedding, cutting
station?
This is important because more PCs cost money and more PCs take up
precious
space.  On the other hand, more PCs allow more ease of data entry.
2.  At grossing do you need to see the requisition?  Are the
requisitions
scanned into IMPAC?   That would make it difficult for IMPAC to display
those images.  What about patient history?  Do you need to see that at
grossing?
3.  Do ALL slides print automatically when a block is scanned or do they
have to be selected?  You may have a preference here, but notice that I
said
'slides for a block'.  I can see both answers being 'correct'.
4.  If you already have a Benchmark or Ultra, you have a built in
motivation
to use Vantage.  With Vantage, you can use only ONE slide label to label
slides going to those instruments.  With IMPAC, you have to hand write
or
double label.  This is because those 2 instruments require the use of
Ventana's own label.   Also, once the order for the benchmark or Ultra
is in
Vantage, I 'imagine' that this data would be sent to those instruments
automatically.  Please confirm this as I do not know if this is an
additional cost.
5.  Again, if you use either the Ultra or Benchmark, the anticipated
slide
completion date is available.  This date/time is not available via an
interface to IMPAC or any other vendor.
6.  At grossing do you need to see the requisition?  Are the
requisitions
scanned into IMPAC?   That would make it difficult for Vantage to
display
those images.  What about patient history?  Do you need to see that at
grossing?

There are certainly other issues, and please don't get me wrong.  I
think
that Vantage is a very sexy product.  It looks very nice and it provides
the
positive ID everyone should really have.  As you read the literature and
get
responses from others keep in mind that you have a choice a lot of
people
don't have.  You can choose a system that is supported by your current
vendor.  A LOT of other people don't have that choice.  It's either
Vantage,
a competitor to Vantage or a new LIS.  You can get a lot of 'bang for
the
buck' with just Vantage.

...but if you're looking for a new LIS, well that's where my company
comes
in.... but that's a subject for a private email.

P.S.  The purpose of this email is to neither endorse one or the other
product.  My intention was to simply get people thinking about the
issues
involved, especially as tracking solutions and LIS's have evolved over
the
last few years.

Michael Mihalik
PathView Systems | cell: 214.733.7688 | 800.798.3540 | fax: 952.241.7369

-----Original Message-----
From: histonet-bounces <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu
[mailto:histonet-bounces <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu] On Behalf Of CHRISTIE
GOWAN
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2011 7:05 AM
To: dana.spencer <@t> pcmh.com; histonet <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu
Subject: RE: [Histonet] Histology Workflow Solutions

Hi Dana,
I can't speak to the Elekta module but I have used the Vantage system
for
over a year now. We generate a bar code at accessioning that is used
throughout the entire process to make cassettes, gross, embed, section,
stain and turn out. We do not batch during any of the process other than
the
20 slides we put in our staining tray. We scan each block at microtomy
as we
section which prints a label that we affix to the slide when we pick up
the
section. We have virtually eliminated errors at all stations. We were
able
to see quite an improvement in turn around times as well as tracking our
specimens. This system also allows us to track quality issues anywhere
in
the process. Please feel free to contact me if you have further
questions.
Christie Gowan
University of Alabama at Birmingham
Surgical Pathology
205 934 4991

> Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 09:41:02 -0500
> From: Dana.Spencer <@t> PCMH.COM
> To: histonet <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu
> Subject: [Histonet] Histology Workflow Solutions
>
> I am currently investigating workflow solutions for our Histology Lab
incorporating bar code labeling. We use the PowerPath/ Elekta AP System.
I
am looking into Elekta's AMP Module vs Ventana's Vantage system. I would
welcome any comments on these systems and how they work in your lab or
if
you use something else. I would also welcome any suggestions or comments
on
how you label slides...Do you batch print and scan barcodes of the
blocks
and slides at the microtome? Do you scan blocks at the microtome and
print
labels there for the slides? Do you scan blocks at the microtome and
print
slides at the microtome? You may email directly if you prefer. Please
share!
Thanks in advance for your help and feedback!
>
> Dana
>
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