[Histonet] Practical Exam

Fri Feb 20 15:34:46 CST 2009

I have not been following this discussion but I scanned this one and
remember receiving orders from private people to section certain tissues and
stain them using a variety of staining procedures.  The tissues and stains
were very similar to the ones I had to submit when I took my practical. I
never thought of it until now, I probably aided and abetted a few of these
"cheaters" during my career!

Jim

_______________________
James E. Staruk HT(ASCP)
 www.masshistology.com
   www.nehorselabs.com

-----Original Message-----
From: histonet-bounces <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu
[mailto:histonet-bounces <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu] On Behalf Of O'Donnell,
Bill
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 4:17 PM
To: rjbuesa <@t> yahoo.com; Histonet
Subject: RE: [Histonet] Practical Exam

Rene,

Ouch!!!  

Lighten up!

I never accepted or condoned cheating!  Of course it is immoral! Only a
sociopath would honestly believe otherwise.I never used the words you quoted
me as saying. 

Cheating was one of the two reasons (cost being the other) that you yourself
stated was a motive for ASCP dropping the practical. 

Maybe I wasn't totally clear.

What I proposed was that cheating was never at the scale or magnitude that
it would be a viable reason for ASCP to dismiss the practical exam. I'm sure
it occasionally occured, but I also believe in the basic goodness of human
beings, so I'm pretty sure it was miniscule in proportion to those who
completed their practicals in dignity and with honesty. My point is that it
was not a reasonable justification to end the practical. If you have
concrete proof, fine, I'd love to see it. If it is your opinion, fine,
everyone has them, but don't confuse them.

BTW "moral terpitude" is a redundant phrase, though an interesting choice.
(Smile, Rene....no more flames. I didn't deserve it and besides.......it's
Friday and I don't have the energy to joust. I'll be better rested on
Monday).

William (Bill) O'Donnell, HT (ASCP) QIHC 
Lead Histologist
Good Samaritan Hospital
10 East 31st Street
Kearney, NE 68847 

________________________________

From: Rene J Buesa [mailto:rjbuesa <@t> yahoo.com] 
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 2:37 PM
To: Histonet; O'Donnell, Bill
Subject: RE: [Histonet] Practical Exam

Bill:
In my time when you accepted somebody else doing YOUR job and YOU being
remunerated or accredited for it was called CHEATING and that is a moral
turpitude issue, and really a problem, not as you say that was "not much of
a problem"!.
René J.

--- On Fri, 2/20/09, O'Donnell, Bill <billodonnell <@t> catholichealth.net>
wrote:

	From: O'Donnell, Bill <billodonnell <@t> catholichealth.net>
	Subject: RE: [Histonet] Practical Exam
	To: "Histonet" <Histonet <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu>
	Date: Friday, February 20, 2009, 11:00 AM

	If, indeed, these were the two primary reasons for eliminating the
practical
	exam, they are weak and lazy reasons. An increase in the fee to
apply would
	cover costs, and, well, was it really that much of a problem of
people doing
	other peoples practicals. 

	I can't imagine it to be out of proportion to what might (I
emphasize
	"might" and add "but likely did not") have occurred   sporadically
in all the years prior.

	I won't pass judgement on a single source, but would love to hear
from
	someone who was a part of the decision process that eliminated this
practicum.

	However, if it is true, my estimation of the ASCP has grossly
deteriorated.

	William (Bill) O'Donnell, HT (ASCP) QIHC 
	Lead Histologist
	Good Samaritan Hospital
	10 East 31st Street
	Kearney, NE 68847 

	-----Original Message-----
	From: histonet-bounces <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu
	[mailto:histonet-bounces <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu] On Behalf Of Rene
J Buesa
	Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 8:01 AM
	To: Victor Tobias; Histonet; Rittman, Barry R
	Subject: RE: [Histonet] Practical Exam

	There were 2 fundamental reasons why ASCP eliminated the practical
part of the
	examination:
	1- they got to the conclusion that there was no way to determine if
the person
	sending the slides was the one who really made them, and
	2- it was getting too costly to send the slides to review or to
gather the
	reviewers to qualify the sections, so they decided to eliminate the
practical
	and made the changes we have now (renewal and CEU).
	René J.

	--- On Thu, 2/19/09, Rittman, Barry R <Barry.R.Rittman <@t> uth.tmc.edu>
	wrote:

	From: Rittman, Barry R <Barry.R.Rittman <@t> uth.tmc.edu>
	Subject: RE: [Histonet] Practical Exam
	To: "Victor Tobias" <victor <@t> pathology.washington.edu>,
	"Histonet" <Histonet <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu>
	Date: Thursday, February 19, 2009, 6:30 PM

	Victor
	I cannot believe that you have said this.
	Although I did not think that the practical examination was the
ultimate test
	of skill ,  it did at least provide some uniformity.
	With an extension of the logic that you use it is just as easy to
allow the
	pathologist to certify that the technician is qualified even without
a written
	examination. 
	Without a somewhat standardized practical there is no guarantee that
the
	technician will have any practical knowledge outside their
individual
	laboratory.
	Didactic without adequate practical knowledge is, as far as I am
concerned,
	useless.
	What is really needed is a national standardized written and
practical test
	that is administered by NSH.
	I am not holding my breath that this will happen.
	Barry 

	________________________________________
	From: histonet-bounces <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu
	[histonet-bounces <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu] On Behalf Of Victor
Tobias
	[victor <@t> pathology.washington.edu]
	Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 5:03 PM
	To: Histonet
	Subject: [Histonet] Practical Exam

	There has been discussion regarding the removal of the practical
exam.
	To me it has not been removed, but the responsibility has shifted to
whomever
	signs off on the student. In the case of OJT, the pathologist has
verified that
	this student can cut and stain. Of course what is acceptable to one
pathologist
	may not be to another. Do they get tested in the art of
troubleshooting...... As
	far as the schools go, they shouldn't be graduating anyone that
can't
	cut, stain and troubleshoot.
	So I don't really see a problem with the absence of the practical.
It is
	Friday somewhere.

	Victor

	--
	Victor Tobias
	Clinical Applications Analyst
	University of Washington Medical Center
	Dept of Pathology Room BB220
	1959 NE Pacific
	Seattle, WA 98195
	victor <@t> pathology.washington.edu
	206-598-2792
	206-598-7659 Fax
	=================================================
	Privileged, confidential or patient identifiable information may be
contained
	in this message. This information is meant only for the use of the
intended
	recipients. If you are not the intended recipient, or if the message
has been
	addressed to you in error, do not read, disclose, reproduce,
distribute,
	disseminate or otherwise use this transmission. Instead, please
notify the
	sender by reply e-mail, and then destroy all copies of the message
and any
	attachments.

	_______________________________________________
	Histonet mailing list
	Histonet <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu
	http://lists.utsouthwestern.edu/mailman/listinfo/histonet
	_______________________________________________
	Histonet mailing list
	Histonet <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu
	http://lists.utsouthwestern.edu/mailman/listinfo/histonet

	_______________________________________________
	Histonet mailing list
	Histonet <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu
	http://lists.utsouthwestern.edu/mailman/listinfo/histonet

	_______________________________________________
	Histonet mailing list
	Histonet <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu
	http://lists.utsouthwestern.edu/mailman/listinfo/histonet

_______________________________________________
Histonet mailing list
Histonet <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu
http://lists.utsouthwestern.edu/mailman/listinfo/histonet