[Histonet] uncertified techs in Histology

Wed Feb 18 13:58:49 CST 2009

Thanks for the clarification Bernice!

-----Original Message-----
From: Bernice Frederick [mailto:b-frederick <@t> northwestern.edu] 
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 1:31 PM
To: Molinari, Betsy
Subject: RE: [Histonet] uncertified techs in Histology

Betsy
I was referring to those researchers that bring the crap (non-techs trying
to do the histo). Not what we do. I do feel we are second class citizens
because it is felt that "anyone" can do histo. They read a procedure in a
paper and think we can do magic or, my favorite, give us IHC conditions that
are done by hand and we do it on the autostainer.
Sorry if you took it the wrong way. I was not picking on histotechs, but the
non-knowledgable researcher that think they are histotechs and know more
about it because the might have a PhD. I could get really started on that. I
had to explain to someone the difference between a cross, longitudinal and
tangential section and this person was supposed to have a science
background!
Bernice

Bernice Frederick HTL (ASCP)
Northwestern University
Pathology Core Facility
ECOGPCO-RL 
710 N Fairbanks Court
Olson 8-421
Chicago,IL 60611
312-503-3723

-----Original Message-----
From: Molinari, Betsy [mailto:BMolinari <@t> heart.thi.tmc.edu] 
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 12:54 PM
To: Bernice Frederick
Subject: RE: [Histonet] uncertified techs in Histology

I don't like the generality of this statement. I work in a research lab and
my "stuff" is not crap. The people that I work with do not produce crap, HT
or no HT. I find research more challenging in fact than clinical. Everyday I
get animal specimens of all types in various fixatives. Some have device
implants of various materials and some are looking for cellular changes.
Everything must be of photographic quality. I take great pride in my work
and other techs in my department. 
 At times I do receive samples that have been "abused" by the doctor or
research fellow but that is not my labs' fault and we will speak to the
researcher about future handling of their samples.
Maybe I misunderstood and am reacting too strongly to you statement, but I
get tired of some thinking that research histo techs are second class
citizens.

Betsy Molinari HT (ASCP)
Texas Heart Institute
Cardiovascular Pathology
6770 Bertner Ave
Houston, TX 77030
832-355-6524
832-355-6812 (fax)

-----Original Message-----
From: histonet-bounces <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu
[mailto:histonet-bounces <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu] On Behalf Of Bernice
Frederick
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 7:33 AM
To: 'JoeNocito'; 'Rittman, Barry R'; 'Histonet'
Subject: RE: [Histonet] uncertified techs in Histology

And another note- research labs think they can train anyone to do histology
(trust me on this) and then can't figure out why their stuff is crap and
then try to tell us how to do our job. This just happened and it wasn't the
processing (we did it) but the quality of the sample submitted!
As we are classified at NU as Sr. Research techs, we have to really fight
the U for salary and we are only in the middle of the scale, but we are in a
very relaxed atmosphere.
Bernice

Bernice Frederick HTL (ASCP)
Northwestern University
Pathology Core Facility
ECOGPCO-RL 
710 N Fairbanks Court
Olson 8-421
Chicago,IL 60611
312-503-3723

-----Original Message-----
From: histonet-bounces <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu
[mailto:histonet-bounces <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu] On Behalf Of JoeNocito
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 6:39 PM
To: 'Rittman, Barry R'; 'Histonet'
Subject: RE: [Histonet] uncertified techs in Histology

Don't hold back Barry, tell us what you really think

JTT

-----Original Message-----
From: histonet-bounces <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu
[mailto:histonet-bounces <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu] On Behalf Of Rittman,
Barry R
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 4:16 PM
To: 'Histonet'
Subject: RE: [Histonet] uncertified techs in Histology

I think that the entire system needs a good enema.

Ever since I started work in a lab in 1957, salaries have been poor and not
kept up with cost of living or reflected the skill of many of the
histotechs.

I feel that one of the major problems is that we have several categories of
histotechs.
Certified (I mean that in the nicest sense of the word!).
Certified and also highly skilled.
Skilled via on the job training.
Robotic technicians.

Until a system is put into place that requires all histotechs to be
certified, or in training along a specific career pathway then things will
never change. Along with this must be a system that requires employers to
have well defined career paths for all their histotechs. This must include
training outside of the routine work that they need to do in their specific
laboratory.
I must agree that getting rid of the practical part of the examination was
how can I put this delicately ... imbecilic.
The workplace needs to get back to being less of a bottom line factory in
which careers of the employees is often not a consideration to a place where
career paths are an integral part of the employment. The optimal environment
is one where there is a two way street where both employer and employee
benefit.
While money is a consideration, it is not the only reason that individuals
continue to work in a specific lab.
Barry

-----Original Message-----
From: histonet-bounces <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu
[mailto:histonet-bounces <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu] On Behalf Of Judith L.
Williams
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 1:36 PM
To: Pamela Marcum
Cc: 'Histonet'; 'Donna Hunter'
Subject: RE: [Histonet] uncertified techs in Histology

Hi all in histo world - well, time to get on the bandwagon! so, I agree with
the other Old TEchs that came through the hard way like I did- it was much
more of a challenge and the certification really meant something you worked
HARD for!
How do we pass that on the our newer techs. I think it is up to us to make
sure they know how to do things- how to troubleshoot- how to make things by
hand should they not get in the order of pre-made stuff!
In a busy work world it is a challenge- but the only way they will learn now
is if we train them. Are the schools doing this? yes, some are. The students
that work with someone who has time to train them correctly OJT or otherwise
are the lucky ones. Like the one working for you Pamela. Hopefully she will
be able to pass on her knowledge to others.
And for the certification - yes, the histology techs need to be certified-
or they are called Histology Lab Assistants- even though they can cut or
embed. 
and it is Tuesday......... not even Friday
Judy

On Tue, 17 Feb 2009, Pamela Marcum wrote:

> Ah, the memories of having to find the tissue then gross, process, stain
and
> wait. You are absolutely correct it was a very exciting time to open that
> envelope and find out I passed the both tests.  Doing everything manually
> from cutting, mounting and staining was nerve racking and worth every
> minute.  I knew what each stain would do and how to make it the best I
could
> by hand.
>
> I don't think the automated units give the same satisfaction and don't
teach
> troubleshooting the way we learned it.  I made my stains so if it did not
> work it was on me and no one else.  We still do for new stains.  I am
> training someone now.  She will know how to make the stains and what will
> break the stains so even if we get an automated stainer it will be
something
> she will still be able troubleshoot.  We do buy some stains as soon as I
> know she understands why and how to make them.   I won't even start on IHC
> as I began with IF in brain when no kits were available and we made the
> secondary after buying a primary.  It was actually fun to learn and had
> helped me over the years.
>
> Pamela A Marcum
> University of Pennsylvania
> School of Veterinary Medicine
> Comparative Orthopedic Laboratory (CORL)
> 382 W Street Rd
> Kennett Square PA 19438
> 610-925-6278
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: histonet-bounces <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu
> [mailto:histonet-bounces <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu] On Behalf Of Donna
Hunter
> Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 11:53 AM
> To: Hermina Borgerink; Histonet
> Subject: RE: [Histonet] uncertified techs in Histology
>
> I agree!!! I remember 29 years ago, I worked full time, had to do my
> practical after hours and on the weekends was really proud of what I
> accomplished completing that practical and passing it. Also Sitting in
that
> chair in the big auditorium for the longest 4 hours of my life trying to
> read and take that test looking at those faded bent paper slides of stains
> was so proud when I got that envelope stating I passed.  I think they need
> to bring back the old written test and slides that they used before all
this
> computer enhancement.
> Donna
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: histonet-bounces <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu
> [mailto:histonet-bounces <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu] On Behalf Of Hermina
> Borgerink
> Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 11:29 AM
> To: Histonet
> Subject: RE: [Histonet] uncertified techs in Histology
>
> It is my personal opinion that all Histology techs working within a
clinical
> setting today should be certified. Period.  Histology requirements are no
> longer what they used to be as complexity of procedures used in the lab
are
> increasingly becoming more demanding. I started out in 1961 straight out
of
> high school, but since then, over time, have gotten my HT, BA in biology,
> HTL, and IHQ, all while continuing to work full time.
>
> I think it was a terrible mistake to abandon the practical exam for the
> HT/HTL and rely solely on the written exam to judge the expertise of the
> candidate for ASCP certification. Automation probably played a crucial
part
> in making the "hands-on" experience obsolete, but I think that practical
> experience was invaluable because it reinforced and illuminated what the
> written material was teaching. And while automation undoubtedly has many
> benefits, unfortunately, it can also promote "dumbing-down" as it requires
> little or no interaction with the user of the laboratory equipment. While
I
> was getting my personalized OTJ training from a pathologist in a medical
> school's experimental setting, it was always understood that although we
> were working with animal tissue, the patient's welfare ultimately was the
> bottom line. This attitude not only inspired good laboratory practice, but
> also the desire to learn and to do the best possible job I could. To this
> day I find it immensely rewarding to perform special and IHC stains by
hand
> and achieve the expected results.
>
> So many other professions demand a college education followed by, or in
> conjunction with, training in a particular skill, so why should our
> profession be any different?  With an increased level of education and
> training will come a larger pay check and the well-deserved respect so
> frequently lacking now.
>
> Hermina
>
> Hermina M. Borgerink, BA, HT, HTL(ASCP)QIHC Wake Forest University Primate
> Center Department of Pathology Medical Center Blvd.
> Winston-Salem, NC 27157
> Tel. (336) 716-1538
> Fax. (336) 716-1515
> e-mail:  hborgeri <@t> wfubmc.edu
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: histonet-bounces <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu
> [mailto:histonet-bounces <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu] On Behalf Of Kim
Tournear
> Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 9:53 AM
> To: Histonet
> Subject: RE: [Histonet] uncertified techs in Histology
>
> I agree with the overseas tech issue...my experience at Ventana Medical
> allowed me to meet alot of well educated techs from across the ocean. What
> difference does it make where the education comes from, as long as the
> candidate is qualified to do the job?
>  
> I think an ASCP certification should be obtained allowing the applicant to
> use his/her credentials, and a state license (if applicable) without
having
> to go back for a degree they already have.
>  
> We knew long before 2005, that the histology world was going in new
> directions and that a histotech would be required to be certified. I fear
> that at some point, hospitals will not hire any non-registered techs (of
any
> kind).
>  
> Just my 2 cents worth....
>
>
> ~Kim Tournear ~HT (ASCP), QIHC (ASCP)
> Histology Supervisor
> Tucson Medical Center
> Tucson, AZ
>  
> ~Don't let your life end before it begins~
>  
> OU Rocks!!!!
>
> --- On Mon, 2/16/09, Bernice Frederick <b-frederick <@t> northwestern.edu>
wrote:
>
> From: Bernice Frederick <b-frederick <@t> northwestern.edu>
> Subject: RE: [Histonet] uncertified techs in Histology
> To: "'Larry Woody'" <slappycraw <@t> yahoo.com>,
> histonet <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu
> Date: Monday, February 16, 2009, 7:28 AM
>
> Agreed. Kind of devalues one's education if there are uncertified techs. I
> also think that it's silly that techs from outside the US are sometimes
> forced to repeat their 4 years of college when they have the knowledge and
> the equivalency from wherever and can do the job better than some techs
> doing it for years.
> Bernice
>
>
> Bernice Frederick HTL (ASCP)
> Northwestern University
> Pathology Core Facility
> ECOGPCO-RL
> 710 N Fairbanks Court
> Olson 8-421
> Chicago,IL 60611
> 312-503-3723
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: histonet-bounces <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu
> [mailto:histonet-bounces <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu] On Behalf Of Larry
Woody
> Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 10:10 AM
> To: rjbuesa <@t> yahoo.com; Histonet <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu; Steven Coakley
> Subject: Re: [Histonet] uncertified techs in Histology
>
> This has been an ongoing issue for so many years in histology, I've always
> wanted to see a mandatory license in the field but that always starts a
> firestorm of controversy. If you have surgery, you certainly want a board
> certified surgeon to do it and same with the Pathologist that looks at the
> slides so wouldn't you want a certified tech doing the lab work as well?
>  
> Larry A. Woody
> Seattle, Wa.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Rene J Buesa <rjbuesa <@t> yahoo.com>
> To: Histonet <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu; Steven Coakley
> <sjchtascp <@t> yahoo.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 7:58:26 AM
> Subject: Re: [Histonet] uncertified techs in Histology
>
> A hospital that relies on uncertified techs to do histology work is
> motivated by the pursue of costs cuts (you can call it greed!) and shows
> total disregard for quality of work and patient care. They may end losing
> all those savings when settling a legal case.
> René J.
>
> --- On Wed, 2/11/09, Steven Coakley <sjchtascp <@t> yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> From: Steven Coakley <sjchtascp <@t> yahoo.com>
> Subject: [Histonet] uncertified techs in Histology
> To: Histonet <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu
> Date: Wednesday, February 11, 2009, 9:55 AM
>
> Any thoughts or experiences with my fellow HT/HTL's(ASCP).  What the big
> advantage do all these facilities think there gaining by going with
> unregistered
> techs, especially when theres always ongoing quality issues when theres so
> many
> trained certified HT looking for work?  In my area of the country I can't
> believe how many Hospitals go this way.
>
>
>
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Judith Williams, PhD, HT(ASCP)
Research Scientist
Department of Comparative Medicine
University of Washington
Seattle, WA 98195

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