[Histonet] RE: [IHCRG] IHC antibody expiration question for CAP. .

Tue Oct 14 19:43:29 CDT 2008

I do not know much about why expiration dates were started, but I would assume that fear of being sued has a lot to do with it.  A missed diagnosis and a lawyer could go after the lab, pathologist, doctor, and antibody manufacturer.  A manufacturer would loose a lot more money in a lawsuit than they would make by short dating expiration dates on an antibody.  This idea of a "stability guarantee date" might relieve the manufacturer of responsibility and place it on the technician, pathologist and lab.*

James Watson HT  ASCP
Facilities Manager of Histology
GNF  Genomics Institute of the Novartis Research Foundation
Tel    858-332-4647
Fax   858-812-1915
jwatson <@t> gnf.org

*Disclaimer:  This post comes from someone in research that has no stake in this other than the being concerned about the high cost of healthcare and a proper diagnosis. 

-----Original Message-----
From: ihcrg <@t> googlegroups.com [mailto:ihcrg <@t> googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Richard Cartun
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 3:10 PM
To: Jackie.O'Connor <@t> abbott.com; pruegg <@t> ihctech.net; Histonet
Cc: 'ihcrg Group (E-mail)'; ancillarypath <@t> mac.com; charlene.henry <@t> stjude.org
Subject: [IHCRG] IHC antibody expiration question for CAP. .

I have antibodies that work great 10-20 years after their expiration
date.  Once again, I propose that the manufactures eliminate the
"expiration date" and use a "stability guarantee date".  If the antibody
is used after that date then the user would be responsible for
validating its performance.

Richard

Richard W. Cartun, Ph.D.
Director, Histology & Immunopathology
Assistant Director, Anatomic Pathology
Hartford Hospital
80 Seymour Street
Hartford, CT  06102
(860) 545-1596
(860) 545-0174 Fax

>>> Jackie M O'Connor <Jackie.O'Connor <@t> abbott.com> 10/10/08 3:12 PM
>>>
When I was making and testing antibodies for a manufacturer, we had
retest 
dates on all the lots.   As each lot reached or was past it's
expiration 
date, we would test it against a fresh antibody lot - if it still met
the 
exact same standard, we would extend the expiration date 3 or 6 months.

Most antibodies stored at 40C I tested were still good 6 months past 
expiration.  ALL antibodies were still good 30 days past expiration, 
regardless of the storage conditions.     There was a strict rule about

thawing frozen aliquots  - no more than 3x freeze-thaw cycles, as this
did 
damage the antibody. 
Throwing away frozen aliquots because they have expired is nuts.   If
your 
results are still meeting standards, it's a waste.

Jackie O'

"Patsy Ruegg" <pruegg <@t> ihctech.net> 
Sent by: ihcrg <@t> googlegroups.com 
10/10/2008 02:00 PM
Please respond to
pruegg <@t> ihctech.net 

To
<charlene.henry <@t> stjude.org>, <ancillarypath <@t> mac.com>, "'ihcrg Group 
\(E-mail\)'" <ihcrg <@t> googlegroups.com>
cc

Subject
[IHCRG] Re: IHC antibody expiration question for CAP.    .

Charlene,

This is new to me as well.  Hadi can you give us the rule where it says

you can use expired abs if you freeze aliquots before they expire?  
Folks, do not throw away expired antibodies.  The IHCRG has a reagent 
bank, you can send them to me.  We will even provide you with a fedex
act. 
No to use to ship the reagents.  I have a refrigerator full of these 
reagents labs being CAP inspected have sent me.  We use them in
research 
and for teaching purposes.  If any of you members of the IHCRG want to

check something out we have in the bank, perhaps before you purchase it

for a research project, you can do that.  Just send me a message asking
if 
I have what you need.

Patsy

Patsy Ruegg, HT(ASCP)QIHC
IHCtech
12635 Montview Blvd. #215
Aurora, CO 80045
720-859-4060
fax 720-859-4110
pruegg <@t> ihctech.net 
www.ihctech.net 
www.ihcrg.org    

From: ihcrg <@t> googlegroups.com [mailto:ihcrg <@t> googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of 
Henry, Charlene
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 12:48 PM
To: 'ancillarypath <@t> mac.com'; ihcrg Group (E-mail)
Subject: [IHCRG] Re: IHC antibody expiration question for CAP. .

What do you do when the antibody data sheet states "do not freeze" and
if 
freezing the antibody is accepted by CAP wouldn't the CAP Checklist
state 
that this practice is acceptable? Also I have been to a couple CAP 
workshops and this question was ask. The CAP instructors stated that
the 
antibody cannot be used past the expiration date regardless if it is 
frozen or stored at -20°C. 

Charlene Henry HT (ASCP), QIHC
Anatomic Pathology Section Head
Department of Pathology
St. Jude Children's Research Hospital
901-495-3191
fax 901-495-3100

From: ihcrg <@t> googlegroups.com [mailto:ihcrg <@t> googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of 
Hadi Yaziji
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 1:28 PM
To: ihcrg Group (E-mail)
Subject: [IHCRG] Re: IHC antibody expiration question for CAP. .
You need to educate the inspectors that it's accepted by the CAP. Most

inspectors don't even know about this, because it hardly ever comes up.

================================
Hadi Yaziji, M.D., Medical Director
Vitro Molecular Laboratories
President,
Ancillary Pathways
7000 62nd Avenue, PH-C
Miami, FL 33143
T 305-740-4440
F. 786-513-0175
www.vitromolecular.com 
www.ancillarypath.com 

On Oct 10, 2008, at 1:55 PM, Mark Tarango wrote:

I'm a little skeptical too, but if this isn't allowed then it should
be.
On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 9:22 AM, Sebree Linda A. <LSebree <@t> uwhealth.org>

wrote:
Call me skeptical but I've never heard of CAP accepting this method of

shelf-life extension. 

Linda A. Sebree 
University of Wisconsin Hospital & Clinics 
IHC/ISH Laboratory 
DB1-223 VAH 
600 Highland Ave. 
Madison, WI 53792 
(608)265-6596 
-----Original Message-----
From: ihcrg <@t> googlegroups.com [mailto:ihcrg <@t> googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of 
ancillarypath <@t> mac.com 
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 11:19 AM
To: ihcrg Group (E-mail)
Subject: [IHCRG] Re: IHC antibody expiration question for CAP

There is a CAP-accepted way of working around this...

If you aliquot the antibody before its expiration date and store it in
-20 
freezer, the clock is in effect "frozen" too. For example, if there are
6 
months left before the antibody expires and you freeze the aliquots for
5 
years, then if you thaw one of the frozen aliquots, the thawed aliquot

will still be good for 6 months.

Just make sure you don't thaw and re-freeze the aliquot. 

Hadi

================================
Hadi Yaziji, M.D., Medical Director
Vitro Molecular Laboratories
President,
Ancillary Pathways
7000 62nd Avenue, PH-C
Miami, FL 33143
T 305-740-4440
F. 786-513-0175
www.vitromolecular.com 
www.ancillarypath.com 

On Oct 10, 2008, at 12:15 PM, Swain, Frances L wrote:

Hey everyone.  I use outdated antibodies I work in a research service 
laboratory.  The reason CAP has these rules is because of patient 
protection.  If you use an outdated antibody and the specimen comes
back 
negative and later it was discovered that the patient had the problem
that 
the antibody was suppose to identify.  Maybe the patient dies or is 
permanently ill for the rest of their lives. Can you live with that? 
CAP 
is suppose to make sure that all of the labs (clinical only right now)
are 
working under the same guidelines.  They are not making these rules to

make you spend more money but to protect the patient and make sure the

diagnosis is as correct as can be. I agree that it is unfair to destroy

antibodies that are used only once or twice before they expire.  Maybe
the 
companies preparing these antibodies should extend their expiration
times? 
Just thought I would put my two cents worth in.

Frances L. Swain HT(ASCP) A. A. S.
Special Procedures Technician
Department of Orthopaedic Surgery
Center for Orthopaedic Research
Barton Research Building 2R28
4301 West Markham Street
Little Rock AR 72205
(501) 686-8739 PHONE
(501) 686-8987 FAX
swainfrancesl <@t> uams.edu email

From: ihcrg <@t> googlegroups.com [mailto:ihcrg <@t> googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of 
Mark Tarango
Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 11:10 AM
To: themagoos <@t> rushmore.com 
Cc: ihcrg <@t> googlegroups.com 
Subject: [IHCRG] Re: IHC antibody expiration question for CAP

The rules are the rules.  We need to change them back.

Mark
On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 8:41 AM, Jason and Heather
<themagoos <@t> rushmore.com 
> wrote:

CAP question ANP.22432 states: Are all immunohistochemical reagents
used 
within their indicated expiration dates?

I am wondering what labs across the country are doing to answer this 
question. IHC antibodies are very expensive and can be validated on
every 
run that is made. Some of these concentrated antibodies are diluted out
so 
far that only a very small portion of them are used before they expire.

Are some labs still using outdated antibodies? If so how do you get
away 
with it when you are inspected by CAP? Or are you paying the high
prices 
to throw out the majority of your antibodies so you can answer this 
question yes?

I thank you in advance to your response.

Jason McGough HT(ASCP)
Account Representative - Anatomic Pathology
Clinical Laboratory of the Black Hills
2805 5th Street Suite 210
Rapid City, SD 57701
605-343-2267 Ext 127
605-718-3779 (Fax)
jmcgough <@t> clinlab.com 

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