[Histonet] Sponge problems in processing
Stacy McLaughlin
Stacy_McLaughlin <@t> cooley-dickinson.org
Thu Apr 8 13:52:46 CDT 2004
Can't we all just have our fruit juice in a glass? :)
-----Original Message-----
From: Smith, Allen [mailto:asmith <@t> mail.barry.edu]
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 1:32 PM
To: Marshall Terry Dr, Consultant Histopathologist
Cc: histonet <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu
Subject: RE: [Histonet] Sponge problems in processing
If an object is under water and the air pressure above the water is
reduced, the total pressure on the object is reduced. If the object is only
17 feet down (1/2 Atm water pressure plus 1 Atm air pressure), halving the
air pressure above it reduces the total pressure by 33% (1 Atm instead of 1
1/2 Atm). If the air pressure above it is reduced by 97% (to 0.03 Atm), the
water boils at room temperature!
If you seal the bag of fruit at normal atmospheric pressure, put the bag
17 feet underwater, and reduce the air pressure above by 50%, the fruit does
not release juice because the total pressure (1 Atm) is still as high as
when it was sealed. However, if you reduce the air pressure by 95%, the
total pressure on the fruit will be 0.55 Atm. If you reduce the pressure to
0.55 Atm suddenly, air dissolved in the fruit juice will rupture the fruit
and juice will leak out. If you reduce the pressure slowly to 0.55 Atm, the
air will diffuse out without rupturing the fruit.
If you slowly reduce the pressure on the fruit to 0.03 Atm, the water
will diffuse out slowly, and you will have intact dehydrated fruit. If you
reduce the pressure on the fruit 0.03 Atm suddenly, the rapid boiling of the
juice will rupture the fruit and some juice will leak out before it, too,
boils.
Allen A. Smith, Ph.D.
Professor of Anatomy
School of Graduate Medical Sciences
Barry University
Miami Shores, FL
(also PADI divemaster)
-----Original Message-----
From: histonet-bounces <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu
[mailto:histonet-bounces <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu] On Behalf Of Marshall
Terry Dr,Consultant Histopathologist
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 11:41 AM
To: Kemlo Rogerson; Histonet <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu
Subject: RE: [Histonet] Sponge problems in processing
Kemlo comes back (well he would):
"But that's cos the air is trying to escape to equilibrate the outside
reduction in air pressure. If the airplane was under water and had no air in
it and the air pressure was reduced on top of the water then it would have
no effect on the airplane, would it?"
Any explanations as to what this means to me please.
He continues:
"Similarly the fruit in the bag is not under water, is it?
Put the fruit under water in the bag and then reduce the pressure above the
water, bet no juice comes out of the fruit except if there is trapped air
and that forces some out as it exits."
No, the fruit in the bag is not under water, but soon it is under fruit
juice. The first thing that happens when you apply vacuum is that the air
goes, then the fruit juice exits the fruit. However, there is a difference
in the two systems, in that the bag in the vacuum press collapses. The
retort hopefully does not. Would this make a difference? My capacity to
conceive some of these concepts is quite paltry.
"Bet you $10".
I don't do bets or dollars.
Someone put a car sponge in a VIP and stop it at the appropriate time would
you?
Terry L (wishing I'd kept my mouth shut) Marshall
Dr Terry L Marshall, B.A.(Law), M.B.,Ch.B.,F.R.C.Path Consultant
Pathologist Rotherham General Hospital South Yorkshire England
terry.marshall <@t> rothgen.nhs.uk
-----Original Message-----
From: Kemlo Rogerson [mailto:kemlo <@t> tiscali.co.uk]
Sent: 08 April 2004 16:14
To: Marshall Terry Dr, Consultant Histopathologist;
Histonet <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu
Subject: RE: [Histonet] Sponge problems in processing
Bet you $10
Mr Kemlo Rogerson MSc DMS MIBiol CBiol FIBMS
Tel: 0208 970 8414
Mob: 07830 196072
Mobile E-Mail kemlorogerson <@t> 3mail.com
FAX & Answer Phone 0871 242 8094
E-mail Accounts:
kemlo <@t> tiscali.co.uk or
kemlo1 <@t> btinternet.com
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-----Original Message-----
From: histonet-bounces <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu
[mailto:histonet-bounces <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu] On Behalf Of Marshall
Terry Dr,Consultant Histopathologist
Sent: 08 April 2004 13:25
To: Kemlo Rogerson; Histonet <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu
Subject: RE: [Histonet] Sponge problems in processing
When you see these "action thrillers" in airplanes, and a
bullet/bomb/whatever makes a hole in the fuselage, everything rushes to the
hole, not just the air. I can't envisage this process of sucking only the
air or "surface air bubbles" and leaving a soggy sponge replete with its
load. Under a vacuum, surely the sponge will collapse as the contained
liquid runs out towards the exit. If you apply vacuum to a plastic bag
containing fruit, the juice comes out, and this forms the basis of a vacuum
press, one of which I possess.
So there.
Dr Terry L Marshall, B.A.(Law), M.B.,Ch.B.,F.R.C.Path Consultant
Pathologist Rotherham General Hospital South Yorkshire England
terry.marshall <@t> rothgen.nhs.uk
-----Original Message-----
From: Kemlo Rogerson [mailto:kemlo <@t> tiscali.co.uk]
Sent: 07 April 2004 16:48
To: Histonet <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu
Subject: RE: [Histonet] Sponge problems in processing
I thought vacuum processing only 'sucked away' air. I mean if you reduce the
air pressure above the fluids then that reduces pressure within the tissue
that was preventing air escaping (as it has a positive pressure). I suppose
if you reduce the Saturated Vapour Pressure of a solvent then that would
cause more solvent to vapourise but wouldn't that be from the surface of the
solvent rather than within the tissue?
Mr Kemlo Rogerson MSc DMS MIBiol CBiol FIBMS
Tel: 0208 970 8414
Mob: 07830 196072
Mobile E-Mail kemlorogerson <@t> 3mail.com
FAX & Answer Phone 0871 242 8094
E-mail Accounts:
kemlo <@t> tiscali.co.uk or
kemlo1 <@t> btinternet.com
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-----Original Message-----
From: histonet-bounces <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu
[mailto:histonet-bounces <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu] On Behalf Of Marshall
Terry Dr,Consultant Histopathologist
Sent: 06 April 2004 16:21
To: Steven E. Slap; Gayle Callis; Gudrun Lang;
Histonet <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu
Subject: RE: [Histonet] Sponge problems in processing
OK. 200 ml. of liquid retained, with 100 blocks.
However, with a vacuum processor, is that not all "sucked away"?
BTW, should it sound otherwise, I hate the things (but am stuck with them).
Dr Terry L Marshall, B.A.(Law), M.B.,Ch.B.,F.R.C.Path Consultant
Pathologist Rotherham General Hospital South Yorkshire England
terry.marshall <@t> rothgen.nhs.uk
-----Original Message-----
From: Steven E. Slap [mailto:siksik03 <@t> comcast.net]
Sent: 06 April 2004 16:14
To: Gayle Callis; Gudrun Lang; Histonet <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu
Subject: Re: [Histonet] Sponge problems in processing
Hi HistoNetters
I agree with Gayle, and the other posters who pointed out that
sponges carry over 1ml of fluid per sponge (so, with 100 cassettes,
200 sponges, that's a lot of carryover).
I have had a lot of success with the biopsy cassettes which Gayle
refers to, both in microwaves and in conventional tissue processors.
You can request samples from Lab Storage Systems in St. Louis by
phone at (800) 345-4167 or by e-mailing Rita Lovshe at
rcl <@t> labstore.com.
best regards,
Steven Slap
At 10:20 AM -0700 4/1/04, Gayle Callis wrote:
>To: "Gudrun Lang" <gudrun.lang <@t> aon.at>,
Histonet <@t> lists.utsouthwestern.edu
>From: Gayle Callis <gcallis <@t> montana.edu>
>Cc:
>Subject: [Histonet] Sponge problems in processing
>
>Gudrun,
>
>We no longer use sponges, prefer to place tissues in tissue embedding
bags
>(Fisher) which look like tea bags or the little nylon bags (not as easy
to
>handle, but thinner than sponges) and a tidge stiffer than tea bags.
>Sponges can cause artifacts in your tissues, looking like triangular
holes
>in section. This was published by Freida Carson in Journal of
>Histotechnology, 1980's. Using tea bags may not be as fast during
>embedding, but speed there is a trade off for having to reprocess
important
>tissue samples, ho hum tedious and time consuming while patient waits.
>
>You analysis of problem sound correct with a poor exchange of solvents
>through sponges. If you pack cassettes super tight in basket/cassette
>holder inside processor you can impede solvent flow or if sponges are
>crammed too tight agaist tissue then lid smashed down on tissue/sponge
>sandwich - this is like having too thick a tissue in a cassette.
>
>There are some clever biopsy cassettes with a folding, fine mesh
inserts
>fitting inside a cassette. These may be worth a try to avoid sponges.
I
>think they are available through Fisher or some other company who could
>provide free samples. It will be interesting to see peoples
testimonials
>on using these.
>
>There was Histonet discussion on these sponges way back in time - it
may
>pay to do a search for those messages in Histonet Archives.
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